A Chat With Marie • 12/28/2001Bill: hello marie Pville Peg: Where's Marie? Late again? Webmaster JG Hi, Marie -- welcome "home"! Pville Peg: Hi, Marie! Are you dialing in over the oh-so-slow phone lines from scenic Bayse, Virginia? Bill: So this is cool. My first chat room experience. And it's not even about sex. Pville Peg: We could arrange that.... Webmaster JG Hey, Bill - describe yourself. ;) Marie: Sorry. Problems with the old Performa 6360. Bill: That I presume is how I would begin in a conventional chat room. Describe myself. Ok I'm 30; 6'2", and wealthy. Iy turn-ons include..... Webmaster JG: No, no please don't! Marie: Help, how do I make the computer stop acting insane?? Marie: I seem to have forgotten all my computer skills! How will I ever get a job? Oh, right, there aren't any more computer jobs. Bill: No really... Just kidding. My tun ons include foreign policy, old prints and water colors. And insane computers Webmaster JG: Marie -- what's it doing? Marie: Bill, I missed your commentary on Morning Edition! I heard "Performance Today" instead. Assumed the schedule was the same as in NYC. Now I have to see if it is on the NPR website. Webmaster JG: Welcome, Jeff -- where are you from? Bill: no more computer jobs---just jobs that require computer skills Marie: JG- I think it is refreshing too much. Maybe if I make it fewer refreshes?? Slow computer, fast typing and fast connection. Marie: Jeff should be right back. He is probably suffering from slow old computeritis too. Webmaster JG: So Marie, is Virginia as insane with the patriotism as Florida? Pville Peg: I guess we won't hear from the "Mom", since you are in the same place with one phone line? Bill: If you like you can get the commentary text from my web site
Marie: Virginia has occasional sanity, like Aunt Peggy who told me that what I had mistaken for arrogance was just ignorance of other cultures. Pville Peg: And ignorance is so much more attractive than arrogance. Marie: I'll be right back... Pville Peg: Hi, Jeff, where are you logging in from? Bill: I am curious. Why did you decide to visit the Sudan after 9/11. It's not a safe destination for Americans at any time. One of my friends married a Sudanese Christian woman and she has nothing but horro stories. Several family members killed and disappeared. Pville Peg: Marie has some great stories from Sudan that we haven't received yet. Friendly people. Jeff: Hi, I'm from Austin Pville Peg: Like the guy who gave her the visa who said, "So, you hate us, right? When Marie protested, "no, not me personally" he kept smiling and agreeing, "yes, not you personally, but you Americans hate us, yes?" Webmaster JG: Like most Americans even know where Sudan is. Pville Peg: Welcome, Jeff. I'm a little disappointed that we don't have anyone from anywhere but the US. Marie, you should've sent that reminder email (but how could you with an insane computer?) Pville Peg: The performa 6360 isn't nicknamed Hal, is it? Maybe it won't let Marie sign back on. Bill: Abanik's wife was very nice. There are lots of nice people in dangerous places. The fact is that the Islamic fundamentalists are waging a campaign of extermination against the Christian population. They ran a campaign against the regime from Murray. Sudan also has the highest incidence of chattle slavery in the world I believe. Not to put too fine a point on it, many Nazis were charming individuals after a hard day at the ovens. Marie: Sorry, major Performa disaster on this end. Marie: Ah, I see them. So the question is why did I go to Sudan anyway? Marie: And the question implied by Jeff signing on and off is "should I buy that new iBook," so I guess the answer to that is YES! Pville Peg: (And many ignorant, jingoistic Americans are charming people, too.) Marie: I had met and corresponded with other travelers who had gone through Sudan. They made it with little or no problems. Marie: In fact, everyone complained about Ethiopia but said Sudan was fine. Just don't go to the South, they said, where there is a civil war. Pville Peg: Marie, when might we get caught up on the emails? Bill: There are good and bad everywhere. The line better good and evil runs through every human heart. Wan't that one of the quotes for discussion at the UU, Peg? Everywhere there are good and bad people and every one has the capacity for each inside. I think that's a separate question from the policy pursued by a specific regime--don't you? Pville Peg: I think you should definitely do a segment on the culture shock of coming home to a different world. But, maybe after you see New York. Bill: Actually I meant to type: The line betweenr good and evil runs through every human heart. Marie: Even Aunt Karen in Wilmette knew someone from Sudan who said that as long as I stay in the north, I should be fine. Which I was. Very nice, considerate people. Bill: Well almost what I meant to type. Pville Peg: Bill, are you still trying to type with Bruno on your lap? Marie: I do want to do a piece on coming home to a changed world. But it is touchy and I am opinionated and I don't want to alienate a large part of the audience, so maybe that is a different article. Marie: And boy is it a changed world! Bill: No excuses. I'm just challenged. Burno's snoozing downstairs with the girls Webmaster JG: Marie, what makes your stuff fun to read is how damn opinionated you are. : ) Marie: Sign on store in Florida: "God Bless America, Discount Auto Parts, Drills On Sale." Pville Peg: And all the American Flags were made in China. Webmaster JG: Buy stuff! It's the American thing to do! Marie: pvillepeg: I hope the e-mails are caught up by the end of next week. Otherwise I'll be typing them in Australia. Jeff: did you get very many gift orders? Marie: JG, I'm glad you like to read opinionated things but if you were one of those people I am opinionated about you might not enjoy it so much! I look to you to confirm my opinions, not be horrified by them! Pville Peg: Speaking of your itinerary between now and Australia, I have a request from your cousins in Arizona to try to make a stop in Phoenix before you go back to the other side of the world. Marie: Sorry I didn't get the reminder out. I've been type-type-typing away but it just didn't happen. I have been buying things, to show my patriotism. No, actually, it's just because everything I own is disgusting now. Marie: Jeff, I did all right on the gift orders. Probably 25 or so. I wish there had been more (that reminds me we better take down the link) because it was a blast to shop for total strangers, but there was enough that the program was a qualified succes. Marie: So it is a given that I am going to try to write a book. But if I succeed, I must take another trip and write another book. Jeff: do you remember if someone named Sue in Minneapolis ordered anything? Webmaster JG: but seriously, so much of what we read and hear is watered down and filtered through "audience expectations". it's really refreshing to read a candid take on things. And besides, it's MARIE'S world tour -- your POV, not a universal one. You might alienate some people, but you'll gain others who appreciate it. Webmaster JG: Unless it's all about how annoyed with your Webmaster you were. In which case keep it to yourself. :) Jeff: Did you have a favorite and least favorite McDonald's experience? Bill: Of course Sudan is ok in the north. That's where Omar al-Bashir and the Islamic Liberation Front established order and imposed Shar'ia law. Things are usually kept calm under sharia lae--just like under the Taliban in Afganistan. You don't want to so south becuase you might run into a local warlord paying for his free-lance operation by capturing Christians and selling them into slavery. Marie: Jeff, don't remember if Sue ordered but I had two Susans order. Pville Peg: If you are going to try to tread the fine line between 'serious' and entertainment, you may want to spend a little extra time and photographs in Manhattan. Marie: JG- Richard once told me I was a cranky traveler like Bill Bryson. It's done well for him so maybe I can make something out of my opinions! Marie: Jeff: my fave McDonald's moment was horribly politically incorrect. Pville Peg: I mean, take the ground zero photos and photos of whatever has changed in your old neighborhood, as opposed to taking one shot in front of Avenue B. Webmaster JG: do tell! Marie: I was suffering from an inflamed chest after the Isuzu accident in Ethiopia, and had been starving my way through Sudan due to Ramadan, not to mention vomiting for 2 days in Khartoum, and then I got to Cairo and McD's was empty due to Ramadan so it was just me and the Big Mac. Mmmmm... sound awful to be eating mcD's abroad (or at home, which I don't), but it was heavenly. Marie: I know it isn't culturally tolerant to be scarfing down a big mac during Ramadan but I couldn't help myself. Marie: I did make up later for the starving, when I ate everything they put in front of me on the QE2. Jeff: if it's okay for them to be open and cook it then it's okay for you to eat it. Bill: Vomiting for 2 days in Khartoum--sound like a winner title for a travel piece. Or Jihad vs McWorld. Stuffing down my Ramadam burger but waiting until dark by Marie. Pville Peg: Very sensible, Jeff. That may not apply to the QE2, though, or even slim Marie would gain weight. Marie: And by the way, when the BBC called me up in Sudan, I was delirious with fever and vomiting, and they asked... Marie: So tell me what you guys think of these ideas: Jeff: Burgers After Dark has a nice ring to it. Marie: Alaska by public ferry. Take the mailboat up the coast from Washington state. Marie: Forbidden countries: travel to Libya, Cuba, and Iraq to see what we're forbidden from seeing (yes, I'd have to discuss this plan with the State Dep't), and then have a look at places that are not traveled to for reasons of internal laws of tourist boycotts, such as Myanmar/Burma and Bhutan. Marie: South from New York to Antarctica by surface. Tough part: Darien Gap, no road from Panama to Columbia, and the ocean bit between Tierra del Fuego and Antarctica. Jeff: maybe we should add two states to make the math easier. Marie: Take a trip with another travel writer (he hasn't committed but I have one in mind), have a written contract to not sue each other, and write different books about the same trip, not mincing words about each other. Marie: Mini-trips I want to take: Tunisia, pyramids of Sudan (by plane), Arabian peninsula, Papua New Guinea, back to Guatemala for more Spanish lessons, follow the trail of the Banana Pancake across Southeast Asia. Marie: (I'm done now) Pville Peg: Been working on that Life List, have you? Marie: I like both "Burgers After Dark" and "Jihad vs. McWorld." Bill: forbidden countries is a great idea. plan it and travel from Canada to avoid hassles with the State Dept. But be careful not to be reflexively hard on the USA. You need balance with regard to your opinions on home in order for your opions of foreign lands to be accepted as balanced. Jeff: did Europe seem boring after a lot of the places you went? Marie: Bill, you think I should go to Iraq but should not have gone to Sudan? Bill: OK --- I know. a tautology Balance =balance. It won't happen again--until it does. Marie: Jeff, Europe won't get much copy in the Marie-mails, because it is boring to read about, but it was excellent to be there. I could brush my teeth in tap water, do my laundry, take hot showers, eat vegetables with the peels on them... Jeff: i suspect Iraq is more difficult to get a visa Marie: I had to give a lecture on the QE2. They LOVED it! Pville Peg: So, when you have the best-selling book to promote, you'll be all set to do lectures. Marie: But afterwards one older man told me that he loved the lecture but in many ways thought I was "a very unwise little girl" for having done this trip. Pville Peg: Forgive him his condescension--there were others of us who were worried, too. Jeff: were there more brits or americans on the QE2? Marie: Actually, if I did the "forbidden countries," I'd have to get permission or I could get in a lot of trouble when the book came out later. "Um, that's fiction," I can see me now. Marie: Jeff, I think there were more Brits on the QE2 but there were a lot of both. Jeff: right before sept 11 the attorney gen wanted to crack down on illegal travel to cuba Jeff: he's probably thinking about other stuff now though. Marie: By the way, the contrast between the QE2 and the truck I took from the Ethiopian border through Sudan a few weeks earlier, was hilarious and bizarre. One day I'm sitting on a sack of charcoal, the next I'm wearing an evening gown to a formal gala. Marie: So does anyone know anyone in publishing? Besides me, I mean, or JG. Bill: I'm not saying don't go. Before I got sidetracked and got on my soap box, I was just going to ask about personal safety. But now the ground has shift to the question of ought. Ought you travel to countires ruled by murderous thuggish regimes? What responsibilities does that those choices entail? Iraq would be a very safe country. Dictatorial regimes are often very safe for travelers. I guess the question is: What is your responsibility as a reporter, as a world traveler, to tell Americans bout these places? Yes the people are nice. They want peace. They want to raise their children well. But is that universal the whole story? It's part of the story. You have to tell it. But you also have to know that you lend legitimacy to these regimes if, when you go, all you write about is how fine the people are and how provincial and jingoistic Americans are. Jeff: Don Goede Jeff: Don's busy working with both Daniel and the unibomber though. Marie: Bill, you've hit on a ages-old controversy which is often discussed in relation to Myanmar. Pville Peg: Unfair, Bill, I think Marie has been very evenhanded about revealing negative things about places she has been. Webmaster JG: Bill -- I guess the truth is (on both sides) people are nice and regimes suck. I think the more that people from one culture think of people from another culture in terms of people (and not the governments that rule them), the better. Jeff: as an American in Iraq your biggest concern would probably be "friendly fire" Marie: Hi Lynne! Lynne is in the UK. Bill: I didn't say she was unfair. But sometimes .... like the post a while back that Sudan is a great place as long as you stay out of the south. No shit. Nazi germany was a great place with chocolate and coocoo clocks--as long as you weren't Jewish and stayed out of the death camps. The USA was a great place in 1960--as long as you weren't black and stayed out of the deep south. Marie: RE: Myanmar/Burma. There is an interesting discussion on "to visit or not" on both the Lonely Planet site and on the Intrepid Travel site. Lynne: Often the real people in these countries want visitors so they can see what conditions they live under Marie: Um, actually my intent was to say that it was safe for travelers to go through the north of Sudan. If you are one of the people who goes missing because of your opinions about the government, it is obviously not so nice. Bill: good for lynne! that's the point in a nutshell Marie: So Lynne... do you have an opinion on whether or not you would visit Burma? I am on the fence. Lynne: I do stand by what I just said - but I'd probably like to read a bit more before I went for it - so I knew how best not to benefit the govt. etc. Marie: The thing with Burma is that supposedly the government has used political prisoners and prison labor to build tourist camps. So should you support that? Obviously not. But Intrepid felt that they had gotten enough connections locally that they were able to support regular people, not the government. They stopped their trips anyway. Too fine a line to tread, too controversial for a travel company. But they know other agencies who have picked up where they left off. Pville Peg: Marie, dear, I must go, but keep me posted on your itinerary. Webmaster JG--good job holding down the fort. Lynne, I appreciate your contribution. Bill, dearest grayguy... don't be defensive. You know what I want to say--no matter what. Marie: Lynne has probably been to more countries than I have, but I think she still needs a Q and what else?? Pville Peg: Bye all. Marie: Bye Peg! Lynne: Just Qatar and Oman to do - a little difficult right now but that would complete the alphabet Marie: Well, if I go on a trip to the Arabian Peninsula, Lynne, you can come too and we'll both complete our alphabets of the world. Lynne: Remember we were going to go to space together as well. The commercial programme doesn't seem to have got off the ground though. Bill: There are a range of moral choices in the global ecoconoy of McWorld. Should we buy Chinese flags to show our patriotism when those flags my be made in Peoples Army Sweat shops using the forced labor of political prisoners? Should I buy those running shoes assembled in Vietnam by underpaid overworked laborers. But if I don't, they'll have no jobs and their kids will starve. Should I buy that Indian carpet knowing its made by a child chained to a work bench? You don't have to travel to face these moral choices in a global economy driven by unbridled capitalism. Marie: Right. In 2010 was it? Lynne and I are going to space together. Marie: Maybe in a Velcro rocket. I mean hook and loop rocket. Lynne: Now that would be a web adventure to write about. Marie: Bill, at the end of the day, I think everything is on a case-by-case basis. No, child labor is not good, but sometimes it is the matter of that child starving or subsisting. One thing I have learned is that I know a whole lot less than I thought I did. Nothing is ever cut and dry. Bill: Velcro Rocket! Another great title. A song, I think. Marie: On a local basis, I encountered this in Africa a lot. Do I encourage this system of commercialization of the Masai culture or do I give them money to buy a school? What can you do? Bill: The world is a Velcro Rocket. Everything goes up together. Everthing is joined. I thought I could do it case by case. But now that illusion is gone. Marie: Masai boys used to dress in traditional clothing and go to kill lions. They don't now, it's illegal. But they dress the part and hang around roads waiting to get a tip for a photo. Good or bad? Depends on how you look at it. Lynne: Hi Bill, Marie: Lynne was the special guest star in Vietnam and in Berlin. She is an important person in Velcro(R) UK marketing. Marie: Maybe if she succeeds, McWorld will have Velcro(R) in the places I saw this year. Bill: .Wow! I never met a Velcro (R) star before! Marie: Jeff, are you going to buy the iBook?? Marie: Sorry, Lynne, I meant Velcro (R) Europe. Jeff: Marie - I've encountered a problem with MacMall but yes I am. Marie: MacMall doesn't allow returns. I don't like that about them. Lynne: We all have new experiences - I've never been in a chat room before. Marie just a quick one before I log off - is the trip over - are you home? Bill: Admitting ignorance-- what is an iBook? Marie: Webmaster JG's brother just had a baby. Yay, JG's brother! I don't know if "just" means ten minutes ago or ten days. Either way, McWorld and the melting pot will be a very different place by the time the baby is all grown up. Marie: Lynne, I'm not quite done yet. I still have a bus trip from Virginia to New York to do, but it will be over on the 31st, when I get "home" to Jon Babcock's apartment on E. 7th Street and Avenue C. Jeff: Macmall is out of the ones with combo drives and they're backordered until Jan. 8, at which point Apple's mail in rebate is no good. it must be shipped before Dec 31 Marie: Bill: an iBook is a really fancy, powerful new lightweight subnotebook from Apple. And you can cook an egg on it. Lynne: Enjoy the party you deserve it. Marie: Jeff: MacWarehouse. PowerMax. Mac Connection. Bill: So here's my pitch for 1) why the USA is important and 2) why open borders are important. The US (and Western Europe) is where that which is McWorld is created. The more diverse the population of the USA--the more Mexicans, Iraqis, Turks, Japanese, Chinese etc who reside in the US and Western Europe the more input they have in creating McWorld at its source. Marie: And I think MacWarehouse gives you a $9.99 case with it too. Marie: And I think the biggest strength of the US and Western Europe is its diversity. My Berlin neighborhood was almost entirely Turkish. My old Avenue B neighborhood was Puerto Rican and Dominican. And McWorld (not MacWorld) is a conglomerate then, not whitebread. Curry is the most popular takeout in England. Bill: Cook and egg on it? Really! Got to have it--opps, my bad. I forgot. I have no disposable income. ;~) Marie: It isn't just America pop-culturizing the world. The world pop-cultures us back, and the results are, INHO, excellent. Marie: Okay, you can't cook an egg on it. But it is amazing, especially when coupled with the iPod. Bill: That's the idea. McWorld is a two way street BUT dominated by the West. That's why non-western cultures located in the west are more effective in influencing the shape of McWorld. Webmaster JG: Sorry -- I was on the phone, and i'm just catching up here. Baby was born last night (made the cutoff for the tax writeoff!). And I recommend Outpost.com for ordering computers online -- free shipping, and great with returns. Marie: Bill: I read a great take on this once, and I am almost sure it was in a Pico Iyer book. I need to read it again to make sure I don't rip him off in my final epilogue to MWT.com. Bill: Congrats on the baby! Many blessing on your family Marie: Jeff: I totally agree with JG. I have never had a problem with Outpost.com and the free shipping is great. Webmaster JG: Actually I'm just an uncle on this one (phew!). But thanks -- it was a rough road for them, and i's so good to know it all turned out fine. Marie: Listen, I have to put a lot of souvenirs in boxes (that I mailed to mom over the year). Shall we call it a night? Webmaster JG: re: outpost -- also no sales tax in most states! Webmaster JG: thanks Marie! How funny that of all the internet connections you made over the past year, the US one would give you such trouble. :0 Bill: so this is cool. Just checked Outpost.com. I still have no disposable income. So much stuff! So little time/money Marie: Ironic, and funny. Webmaster JG: bye marie. my schedules's light right now, so it should be no trouble getting stuff posted as you send it. Talk to you later. Bill: This was fun. Maybe we can get together with Peg sometime. Be well, Marie | |
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